Have we over complicated podcasting? | Chat with PodCraft's Matthew McLean

Voice Over: 00:00:00

Got dreams of being a professional podcaster, but have no idea what you're doing. This is impossible. That's about to change. A new kind of school.

Rachel Corbett: 00:00:08

Welcome to the Pod School podcast. Hello there. What am I doing in your feed today? This is not a regular episode day, but I'm here to offer you a bonus.

I had a wonderful conversation with Matthew McLean, who is the co host of a podcast called Podcraft with Colin Gray. Colin started up a business called the Podcast Host, which, like mine, is designed to help people create a better podcast.

And Matthew reached out to me to say, do you want to kind of have a chat on each other's podcasts about podcasting? I was like, you know what? There's nothing I'd rather do. Yes, I would. So this conversation is based off some survey data that they ran.

They often survey their audience, and they're running a survey right now called the Indie Podcasters Survey, and I've got a link to that in the description of the episode. You can head there feeling your thoughts, feelings. It's a great thing to be involved in.

The more information we can gather about this magical thing that we all love, so much the better. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. We talk a lot about the existential crisis that podcasting is going through right now.

We talk about whether the idea of the podcast as a term is dead and whether we should all be calling ourselves shows. Spoiler alert. I don't think we should be. We also have quite a conversation about video. Both Matthew and I share some similar thoughts about it.

We are all on board. I get it.

It's great to appeal to a new audience, but let's just all be honest, it's pretty exhausting when you're an independent creator, you know, who wants to put on makeup and change their outfit 10 times because they've got a batch recording day. Not me, but I do it because this is the world we live in now. Okay. Anyway, this is not the space of the conversation.

The conversation happens in a second. I hope you'll enjoy it. Make sure you check out podcraft. This chat is also going to be live on their feed as well.

And if you'd like to submit your thoughts to their survey, then make sure you head to the description of the episode. All right, over to Matthew.

Matthew McLean: 00:02:01

So, yes, I figured we could have a wee chat about some recent data that we. That we managed to gather via our newsletter. So you were. You were having a wee look over this yourself, weren't you? And what were.

What were a couple of things that Kind of jumped out that you felt might be worth picking up a wee.

Rachel Corbett: 00:02:16

Bit for a start. I love how you guys do this. Like, I think it's really such incredibly useful data and often you'll, you know, release survey data.

And I find it really interesting to see what you guys are finding out from your audience.

But I guess, I mean, I don't know how you feel about the existential crisis that podcasting is going through right now, but, you know, the whole, should it be a podcast? Should it be a show? Is the word podcast dead? Where does video fit into the whole thing? And I thought it was really interesting.

One of the stats around how indie podcasters feel about the word podcast and whether they think it's outdated, and the fact that 83% of the people that you surveyed thought disagreed that the word podcast was outdated and needed and had lost its kind of usefulness and we needed to move on to something else.

And I thought that was really key because there's a lot of people talking about this with loud voices in the industry that have profile, big shows, whatever. And yet there are a lot of like thousands of creators who have a really important opinion in this space that often don't get heard.

And for me, that's a pretty compelling statistic to see how many people felt that podcast was a word that we should keep.

Matthew McLean: 00:03:34

Is that like, you obviously work well, a lot of people who want to either launch or grow podcasts.

So when people come to you, are they pretty explicit, I need help with my podcast, or is that a bit more of a, you know, I want to create a show or, you know, a series or like.

Rachel Corbett: 00:03:49

No, it's always podcasts. You know, I don't really.

It's interesting because I've worked in this industry for 15, not podcasting specifically for 15 years, like audio in general, for radio for 20 odd years.

And it's, it's just funny when this sort of stuff fl, like flies out into the ether and it gets talked about a lot and you're doing it day to day, like you're working in it, and nobody's really having those conversations, you know, and then you're like, am I missing something? Is the problem me? Am I not reading enough of the industry?

Like, you can see that the conversation's going on, but it's not an existential crisis that any of students are having or that any of the people that we represent on our networks on, on the network that I run is having. Nobody comes in on the daily and goes, we don't want to be referred to as a podcast anymore.

So, yeah, I. I just wonder why this is a hill certain people are willing to die on. It feels like we've spent so many years building up the credibility and the love of this medium. Why now that video is a big part of it.

Is it like, oh, well, let's get rid of that, let's change. It's not a podcast anymore.

Like, if a radio show also streams their radio show or has a video version of their radio show on YouTube or another platform, we don't turn around and say, well, that's not a radio show anymore, is it? It's something else, you know, So I don't know what it is about this thing.

Maybe it's because podcasting became so big that people are like, I don't know. I don't know what it is about it, but it's just, it confuses me. Which is.

Which is when you're in it every day, you feel like, I should get this, but I'm just not on board with these conversations. I'm happy to call it a podcast.

Matthew McLean: 00:05:33

What about, like, when folks are coming to you again, getting help, either set up or grown? Like, is there a expectation among some people now that this is about video too? Or are people still coming to you exclusively for audio?

Rachel Corbett: 00:05:46

I think most of the people that come to me are really desperate for me to tell them that, Vidi, they can do this without leaning fully into video.

That when I'm talking to people about video and how it can be woven into your podcast, and don't get me wrong, I think video is a really great sort of part of this whole thing. I think it's excellent from a promotional point of view.

I think there are some shows where full length episodes work brilliantly, but just like anything else, right? Just like when you were.

When podcasting was audio only, the only way you could build a podcast audience significant enough was to consistently deliver content to build that audience to grow. The same thing happens with video, right? If you're going to build a YouTube channel, you're going to build video and audience on YouTube.

You can't just like, chuck up a video version of your audio and go, oh, that'll do fine. Or, you know, like, you actually have to look at that channel and go, how am I going to build that?

And I think one of the things that a lot of people come to me when they want to start their podcast is they feel so overwhelmed and so scared about the video component that they feel like they can't start the podcast at all because they can't commit to the video portion of it. And so a lot of my conversations are around consistent.

You cannot have a successful podcast without consistency, but you can have a successful podcast without video. You know, there's. You might not reach that full audience potential if you're not appealing to people on different platforms with your video content.

You might be missing out on monetization opportunities if your content was the kind of content that you could build up on a platform like YouTube and monetize. But consistency is the most important thing in podcasting.

So even if you start the podcast and you're just maybe doing no video or just cutting up a little bit of video for like promos and stuff, just recording on a platform like Alatu or you know, getting that video, sending it out, and then if you want to do the more stuff later, add that in. But I think everybody's kind of looking at the long list of stuff that they need to do and thinking this is just too much for me.

Because the truth is that adding video to the mix, particularly if you are going to lean fully in and do full length videos, you are probably doubling your workflow. You know, from a time perspective, you're also setting up a whole bunch of complexity around the tech. If you're a woman, you gotta put makeup on.

Lord help us. You know, like that's not what all of us want to be doing in the small hours of time we have to record.

You gotta be changing your outfit 10 times if you're batch recording. So there's a lot of things that make it a lot more difficult. And I think a lot of people are almost scared to jump in, I guess in a way.

And I'm worried about that because I do think it's turning a lot of people off who feel like this is a little too overwhelming for me.

Matthew McLean: 00:08:37

There's also like there's an energy cost to even all this planning or all this sort of. Well, I want a stuff that's taken vital brain space away from the core of what should actually podcast about to make this good and interesting.

Like what's my topic?

What's like that that has always to me and I'm sure you're the same being the most important thing in the planning stages like the messaging and the targeting and that that's what people should be thinking about. And that's what I worried about. Did you read it was Tom Webster's piece. I should have sent you in advance. Sorry. The preservation paradox.

Writing for so great point that I hadn't like Consciously considered before where he was talking about the danger of this creative monoculture where, you know, if we, if, if we want to do a video show, it makes a lot of sense for it just to be a chat show. I don't have to really prepare all that much. The guests going to come and kind of deliver the value, at least in theory. But now we're at risk.

Now we're losing the more creative, inventive formats that we've always done in audio that have been really good, really well executed, you know, audio dramas, documentaries, even, just ways to make your solo series more creative. So, yeah, it's a worry, I guess, that the brain space has just been taken away from all these great potential opportunities.

Rachel Corbett: 00:09:56

Yeah.

And I think too it's interesting, the whole video obsession and this want to not just embrace it as a great channel and style of content to get more listeners on our programs, but to fundamentally put the video over the top of the podcast. Like now it must be video. And that's it. You know, it's.

It's kind of been so absolute that I actually, I see massive value in utilizing video on your podcast. But the idea that once it's kind of, it's taken on a life of its own.

And I think I always tell people like, you have to understand you can still lean into video, but you have to understand that where this began was the platforms, right? Google tried Google podcasts that got canned because you can't make money out of a podcast app, but you can make money on YouTube.

So they dub bought in the podcast into that space and have doubled down on this video podcast content. And they've been hugely responsible for the hype of this, right.

And that then means that they're pushing content and creators that are doing video first content. So there is a huge benefit to be doing this content early on just like any platform, right? Facebook, all it wanted was content in the early days.

It pushed you far and wide.

Then as soon as it turned on the monetization taps or changed something in the back end, huge websites that were getting millions of views a day got nothing. You know, they can change it on a dime. So the same thing is happening with YouTube. There is massive benefit from leaning into this.

And I can understand why creators are doing it and there are creators who are doing this that are really getting great results out of it. But ultimately you have, you, you kind of. If you're gonna catch the wave of this, you have to know who built the beach. And you, you.

That doesn't mean you're Skeptical about it.

That doesn't mean you're like, this is going to blow over, you know, which a lot of people I think did think you can still lean in and go, okay, well this is here to stay. This is something I should be really thinking about strategically.

But also if I'm thinking there's no other way, this has got to be like, this has been built from platforms that wanted to monetize this content. So, you know, so there are still creators that have audio first shows that are very successful. So yeah, I just think it's.

I don't know, what do you think about this existential crisis? Does it keep you up at night? I just like.

Matthew McLean: 00:12:22

Yeah, I mean I kind of. I guess the last might be kind of bored listening. At least the podcast listeners might be bored of me going on about it just now.

But yeah, yeah, we have kind of covered that a lot over the last year, but it's impossible not to because it's very topical. And again, we're coming at, I think, like yourself from a place of.

We really don't want people to be put off podcasting because got misconceptions or they've been misled about what they need to do to succeed.

Rachel Corbett: 00:12:51

So yeah, I've seen Colin's videos online with his great setup where he's got all his lights and he's got his great background and stuff like, you know, you guys are doing video. Well, he's, you know, I look at that.

I was watching one the other day where I'm like, this setup is just sweet, you know, I wish I had a room because that's half the problem. I find I'm like doing this in between the times that my kids are asleep.

And so I've got like a crappy ring light hiding in the cupboard and my, my mic in this cupboard and you know, so. And then I'm like cleaning the washing out from behind and removing cupcake, the giant unicorn from the sofa. And you know.

Matthew McLean: 00:13:29

What about like, I mean, going back to the data around the name podcast. So we kind of opened with this. But I mean this, this came from a kind of. There was a piece of E Bio back about weather podcasting.

You know, it's no longer the right word for what we do because. And I think this was the problem I had was that, you know, because we're all doing this multi channel approach now.

It's a show and I was thinking, but we're not all doing that like some people are. And I don't mean just podcasters in a Negative sense. Like people are just doing podcasts, and I don't think that's a limitation.

But I mean, did you, did you kind of see the original, the initial kind of content around all of that?

Rachel Corbett: 00:14:13

Yeah, and I, I feel like show is just too general a term. Like anything could be a show. Like a TV show is a show, radio shows a show, podcast is a show, YouTube shows a show.

You know, I, I, I, again, it's like, why is it podcasting specifically that has to change its name if it's just utilizing all of the channels available?

You know, I, I think if, at least in, when I'm thinking about a podcast, whether it's one I'm creating, personally, one that we're looking after in the network, the base content is the podcast. Right. So you're planning everything for that podcast. Everything else is the ecosystem around that podcast.

So that's why I kind of think, well, yes, it does have all, it lives, all of these lives on these different channels, but that's kind of more about discoverability and growing your audience. And at the heart of it is your podcast.

Now, whether or not you think a podcast, it can be a podcast if it's just two people talking in front of a microphone on YouTube and there's no audio version that exists of that. I don't know, like, maybe that's a podcast or it's not, but whatever. It's like, that's the sort of center of the universe for me.

So I don't think it matters that it exists in all these places because it is this one piece of content that you are trying to expand the reach of, I guess.

Matthew McLean: 00:15:43

Yeah.

So, I mean, the data, you touched on this already, but it was 83% of folks that responded to our poll felt that the term podcast hadn't outlived its usefulness. And Katie helpfully pointed out in the analysis piece, too, that, you know, YouTube calls it this and Spotify calls it this.

Apple calls it this, obviously. And even I think it was CNN or somebody like that recently had come out and announced their, like, podcast department.

So it's like, it's not like the word's not getting used. Like, it's still getting used a lot, so.

Rachel Corbett: 00:16:16

Totally. Exactly. Yeah, it's, and it's, it's got such a, I don't know, I mean, you think about where this industry has come from and what it's become.

And for those of us who were in it in the beginning days, when, you know, when I first started my first independent podcast, I'd worked in radio for 12 years. And I remember starting the show and thinking, oh, my gosh, this is amazing.

Like, I have all of these skills that I can use in this new medium, and I don't have to. I don't have to get some radio boss to give me a job in a studio.

I can just do this anywhere and make a show myself and use all of these skills that I have and do this on my own.

And back then, I remember people that worked in radio at the time that I had worked with thought it was really sad that I was doing this thing because I couldn't get a real radio job and that I'd kind of gone into this thing that was like, a bit hobbyist and it wasn't professional. And when you think about how that has changed, and now podcasting is well and truly mainstream. Over 50% of the population listen, like, it's.

It's unbelievable.

And to think then when we get to the point where there is commercial dollars, high audience interest, growing listeners, more people wanting to create content, we think, you know, what we need to do? Just rebrand it. Why? Well, why?

Like, this is such an unbelievable thing that the industry that has built, and honestly, that was built off the back of indie creators, you know, they are the ones that push this into what it has become. And networks have then caught up. Radio networks, you know, audio networks, have then caught up and jumped on it.

And even now, you know, the networks that I run, we're talking with indie creators about bringing them in into our network and helping them monetize and that kind of stuff. It was. It was built on the independence, and it's just. I don't know, it's like, it's.

It's such a lot of rich history in that term, and to kind of just chuck it out the window. I'm like, why. Why do we have to, do you think?

Matthew McLean: 00:18:26

Like, I mean, obviously there's that.

Is that monetization angle of, like, ads and stuff like that seem to be much easier to track visually on video, whereas in audio, there's, you know, there's all the stuff around that somebody listen to it, did somebody hear it, etc. Etc.

Rachel Corbett: 00:18:44

So, yes, yes, definitely. And I think the other interesting thing, yeah, I mean, that's always an issue, right. And it's a frustration in the podcasting space.

I do think, however, like, the data and the measurement has gotten so much better as the industry's matured, and it didn't really matter when it first started. Right. But I think the number of tools and the tech that's out there now to try and improve things has been great.

I was running a network like: 2017

And then, you know, we were conscious that we had this massive back catalog that we can't monetize if people are listening to it because we have baked in ads in there. And so you're basically paying for once and then it's not being paid. And so we all shifted to dynamic advertising, at least the networks.

You know, this is definitely baked in stuff is.

Is more the realm of the indie creator that's working direct with clients, but certainly for networks, the dynamic advertising, this was like, oh my gosh, amazing. We can just. This is super simple from a tech perspective. We can pull out all the ads after a campaign is over. We can monetize our back catalog.

And now, because of this shift to video and because advertise, like podcasting content is on YouTube now, and we can't push the ads through to YouTube once it's on YouTube. Now Spotify is caching that feed if you update and put in video episodes. So we can't serve out audio ads through that channel either.

So a lot of the industry that's built on this dynamic ad serving is like, I've now got a roadblock over here and a roadblock over here.

So the tech that the monetization of the industry and the growth in revenue of the industry is built on is now being kind of limited by these closed ecosystems. And so now it's forcing conversations of like, well, do we need to go back to baked in ads? And I'm like, oh my gosh.

I remember this conversation from like 10 years ago when we were like baked in ads. What are we doing here? Like, why are we leaving this content in there?

So it's interesting, I think, how video has shifted that as well, because dynamic ads is like been what got the industry revenue wise to where it is today. But we're now kind of having to go back, you know, have a conversation about can we actually do that? The answer is no.

If you've got creators that are blocking off these certain channels and focusing on video. So then the content and the ad content has to be visually in the ad, in the content as well. So that's, that's an interesting shift as well.

Matthew McLean: 00:21:35

Yeah, like, just to Kind of reiterate that. I guess the point would be, like, if I uploaded.

If I uploaded my video version of my episode to Spotify in Spotify, that wouldn't be pulling any dynamic ads, would it? It's just set there. It's like, what's in there is in there. And that's all you get, basically.

Rachel Corbett: 00:21:54

Yeah. And it also caches your entire feed. So your feed is. No, it's not even like your old episodes get served.

They're pulling through the ads for your old episode. The whole thing is then just Spotify servers and then they're just serving it that way.

So, yeah, it's completely cut off an entire monetization channel. And if you've got. I mean, there are some creators, like, gone are the days where Apple's 80% of most people show consumption.

You know, Spotify is a really big player. So a lot of shows, that's sometimes the vast majority of their audience.

So that's cutting off that monetization option, if that's what how people are traditionally monetizing that way.

Matthew McLean: 00:22:36

I noticed another week work is Spotify. Not to just pile on Spotify then I.

But I was doing a video, just a wee tutorial there a couple of days ago about how to upload a podcast to Spotify when you were literally hosting it there. And I come to this bit and it was like, do you want to turn on RSS distribution? And I was like, well, why wouldn't I? Why are you even asking me that?

So it was like just putting this weird roadblock in the way where I know you only have to click the button, but it's like just, yeah, you.

Rachel Corbett: 00:23:06

Have to opt in when it, you know, as opposed to, like, if you don't want it, opt out. Like, normally it's just like, yeah, that's the thing. It makes you think, do I want this or not? So it's not so seamless. Yeah.

Matthew McLean: 00:23:17

And I have literally come across podcasts that I wanted to listen to, and I can only find them on Spotify. And it's obviously just because somebody's not hit that button.

And again, you know, if they didn't really think about it or know what RSS meant or anything, I could see why they wouldn't. Because it's not exactly like they don't sell the benefits there very well.

And then going back to YouTube as well, I do an automatic upload to YouTube via Red Circle. That's where I host one of my shows on. And it just creates an audiogram.

But I have dynamic ads in my red circle episodes because I do like a question of the month feature and always update them, but that doesn't go through to YouTube, so I'm losing all of that. It's not like there's loads of people, but it's still like 30 Odd People an episode. They just don't hear the dynamic ads. So.

Rachel Corbett: 00:24:13

Yeah, and also the. All that RSS, like pulling through into the. Into YouTube, the RSS of your podcasts, you know, again, that was advised.

And then we're sort of doing some work around YouTube and talking with some people and it's like, actually this is flooding your feed with a whole bunch of video that. Not video first. That's probably impacting the reach of your page. It's just like, oh man, we're just trying our best here.

Like, you know, you're doing what you're supposed to do and it's just, yeah, it's, it's really, it's really hard to get a handle on kind of what's the right way to go. But it's certainly made the industry a lot more complex now.

I think it's quite exciting to work out, well, how do you solve for these problems and how do you monetize on these different platforms? So, you know, creators, you know, can still partner with networks in really creative ways so that networks can evolve the way that they sell.

I think there's a lot of opportunity here, but it's, it's so interesting. It's. It's the biggest shift we've had, I think, probably ever.

And it's, it's just making a lot of things that used to be like, this is how we do things. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Change is good. But yeah, it's definitely going to take a bit of time for us to work out.

Like, where are we at now? Like, how do we do this?

Matthew McLean: 00:25:38

Yeah, yeah. I mean, when you combine that with like, say AI, that's obviously a big paradigm shift as well.

me personally. And even like: 2020

Rachel Corbett: 00:25:56

Totally. Yeah. But I mean, on the AI thing, do you feel like, does it worry you?

I think that AI and especially tools like Chat GPT, I mean, the amount of time it's cut down just from an ID generation point of view, I don't, I don't think you should be like copying and pasting all your stuff and chucking it out. But I'm like, oh my gosh, all of the stuff that's just a punish to do around your episodes. Like all of the social media posts.

You know, when I think about the workflow that I used to have, I would record my podcast episode, I would get the transcript of it, I would then go through that transcript line by line and use that to then make a blog post out of that.

Then once that was done, on however many tries, I would have to go back into the blog post and go line by line to pull out, like, what are the tips from this? Are there any quotes? What can I share on social media? Like, you'd be going back and forth like, that process could take days.

And now you're just like, can you spit me out a blog post, an email or this? And then at least you've got something to work on. You know, you've got, you're not looking at a blank piece of paper.

So for me, I'm often, you know, I understand the whole it's coming for our jobs and our lives and everything is going to be smarter than us. But for the moment, I'm fine if it does a few tasks that really annoy me.

Matthew McLean: 00:27:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, I see it as a useful assistant. That's all I see it as.

And it is like, I mean, as much as my job is podcast, like, most of what I do is writing and I don't want to certainly become a wash writer because I'm outsourced. Not all to chat GPT, which I don't. But what I found really helpful is just in getting instant feedback.

So I will write my own stuff and I'll try my hardest to get it how I want it to sound. But you know, sometimes a sentence just doesn't sound right or a paragraph's not doing what you need it to do.

And I've got this chat on ChatGPT, it's called the brutal. The brutal editor or brutal copy editor or something. And I told it like, you know, I'm a writer, you're my editor. Just be absolutely brutal.

Anything I copy in here, just tear it up. Tell me what's not working and tell me why don't just fix it for me, but tell me what's going wrong.

So like, you know, almost every article I work on, there'll be a paragraph I'll copy in at some point and just say, okay, hit me.

And it's like, well, this is really weak and you flip flopping here with us and Like, I found that useful because I like to think that I'm learning from it. I'm not just saying, do this for me.

Rachel Corbett: 00:28:23

That's actually probably a step I missed that I might actually take out of this chat, because I think that's a really smart way to use it. Because then you're. Yeah, you're right. You're not just asking it to solve things for you.

You're trying to say, like, teach me what I did wrong here and how I can improve it. And that's like, that's good. I'm taking that away. I'm taking that away. You've given me a little tip I'm going to use for sure.

Matthew McLean: 00:28:49

It's the first step I've ever given anyone. But, yeah, I mean, I've used, like, Grammarly for years, and it's good. Yeah, it's feedback will be, you know, it will quickly fix a sentence for you.

But I was always conscious of that. Like, it's just fixing it for me. And, yeah, fair enough. I could start to see the patterns and what it's done, but I've always wanted a bit more info.

Like, well, why. Why are you replacing that verb with that one? And with this approach, I'm like, okay, that is why. That was a bad sentence.

That's why I'm, you know, I'm switching a passive voice here or that. So I'm learning more about writing now than I think I ever did.

Rachel Corbett: 00:29:28

That's basically trying to prevent what happened when we all got calculators and none of us can add up anymore.

It's like chat really makes it easy to just not know how to write, because you could just like, write your stream of consciousness crap that you haven't put into any and then go, just make this pretty. But the way you're doing it, much better way to go. All right, that's in my. That's in my pocket now. I'm going to use that this week.

That's good advice.

Matthew McLean: 00:29:55

Now if, now, if only it could teach me a podcast.

Rachel Corbett: 00:29:58

Come on, now, you got that down. You know that. You know, the other piece of data that came out of your survey that I found really interesting was around whether we should be.

You know, we've talked a lot about the video stuff, and I know you guys have talked about a lot on the show, too, but whether we should be championing spoken word audio as much as we're championing video. And of the people that you surveyed, like, 91% came back and said yes.

And I thought that was actually honestly I mean, it seems ridiculous, but I kind of never thought of that. I mean, I kind of think I'm. I don't think I'm necessarily championing audio only because I appreciate the role that video can play.

But I certainly do think that to balance out some of the hype around video, that we do need to also remember why this medium became what it became.

And I think one of the things that was key to the success of podcasting and the thing that every, you know, article and whatever would write and every person on a stage would talk about was the fact that it was an antidote to screen time.

And it was because we didn't want to be on our screens anymore and because we wanted something to fit seamlessly into our lives that meant I don't have to be looking at something to enjoy this. And that, for me, was so much about what I fell in love with for podcasting as a consumer. And it's still what I want.

That is my what I want from experience in podcasting. So I appreciate there's lots of people that listen and view on YouTube.

There's lots of people that want to listen to a podcast on their television while they're at home, and that's totally fine. And we want to have content that exists in those areas for those people to consume.

But it completely washes out anybody like myself who uses podcasts as an escape from screen time, who honestly puts something in my ears, goes for a walk and I feel like, oh, God, this is self care. Like, I feel like I'm meditating in a way because I'm just, like, concentrating on the audio. I'm having a look around.

I can do this while I've like, consumed an episode of something that I wanted to consume while I'm driving or I'm doing the shopping or those kind of things.

And so I. I think that is really important for us to still call out and for those people who are going real gung ho on the video stuff to not shout us down if we do that. Because it is not because we are Luddite.

It is not because we are traditionalists that are like, this medium should never progress or be anything other than what it was. But it's just because there is a part of this medium that is the reason a lot of us fell in love with it.

And it is the reason why everybody said it became what it became. And it's like we've completely forgotten that. And now we're not like, you know what? It just needs to be video.

It's like, well, no, this, the fact that it wasn't video is why everybody loved it so much. So let's just remember that too.

Matthew McLean: 00:32:56

Yeah. I mean, podcasts are the only reason that I still actually have a smartphone because, like, I've eliminated all other need to have one.

But, like, I really like having a podcast app and the ability to get podcasts. Like, all I would need to do apart from that is text my wife or my mum. So I would just have one.

You know, the old phone where you had to spell out the. I would just have one of them. But maybe I need to get myself an ipod.

But, yeah, what's interesting about that data as well is that, like, what was it the percentage of people. So it was 91% of people said that we need to champion spoken word audio.

But like, of that 9% who said no, a lot of them because they had the opportunity to leave a comment. A lot of them said no because audio's existed a long time. It's fine. Like, it doesn't need to be champion.

So it wasn't even like people were saying, no, no, no, it's. It's just daft old medium, you know.

Rachel Corbett: 00:33:51

So isn't that interesting? That's. That's an interesting perspective that. Yeah. That it'll be fine. But sometimes I worry it won't be fine.

Matthew McLean: 00:34:01

Yeah.

Rachel Corbett: 00:34:02

At least right now, like, it doesn't feel like it's going to be fine. It feels like anytime you put your hand up and say, this is what I love, and video, I'll do it.

But I'm sorry, it's a bit of a punish, you know, you're not, you shouted down, you shouted down, like, you're not an expert in this space. You're not, you know, moving with the times. You're not this, you're not that. And it's like, yeah, it.

Even as somebody, I don't know how you feel about it. You've been working, doing this kind of content a long time too. You guys are experts in this space too.

It sometimes makes me doubt myself and my expertise and my understanding of this medium because I do feel a little like I'm not. I'm going slightly against the grain. And when you're in that kind of spot, it is easy to kind of think, oh, I must be the problem here.

But I just can't let go of the fact that this, this, this became what it was because of those things, you know, And I don't want it to stay in that space. I don't need it to stay in that space. But I do, I'm GLAD those, that 9% of people are like, audio will be fine and not like, who needs audio?

Matthew McLean: 00:35:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, going back to what you were saying there as well.

Like, I was, I was reading something the other week there and it was, I'm sure it was around, you know, AI clipping tools and getting short form video. And there was, there was a couple angles, but it was like, you know, and these, these, you've only got like six seconds to hook somebody.

And here's how to get 50 million shorts clips from this video and that and blah, blah, blah. And I was just, at the end of it, I was like, I don't really want to be part of this.

Like, even if this was all the way grow, I don't really want to be part of it. Like, I really, like, that's like escape the screen. This long form, nuanced discussion that I could have.

I just don't, I don't want anything to do with like, like trying to hook somebody in three seconds, 15 second video.

Rachel Corbett: 00:36:04

So, yeah, I, I think Justin Jackson was saying something really interesting from Transistor. He was talking about the, the fact that video content is designed to be addictive. You know, the idea that.

Exactly what you're saying, that you got to catch them in six seconds. You got to, you know, it's, it's designed to keep people looping, scrolling, whatever. Podcasting is not that.

And there's something really lovely about when everything in our lives feels like it is trying to addict us for this medium to be about long term relationship growth. Like, I'll be here every week if you want to come check me out and you can come and join me every week.

And if you got things to do, you can save it up and listen to it. Or I'll just see you the next week. That's totally fine.

But ideally I'd like you to stay with me for 30 minutes or whatever, not just six seconds and see if I can, you know, I'm not thinking in my six first six seconds, like, oh my God, do I have to do a super cut of like a whole bunch of funny things? You know what I mean? It's like a totally different way of thinking about content. And I'm the same.

I don't know that I don't enjoy making addictive content. I don't enjoy making social media content. That's not how my brain is wired.

Um, and so, yeah, I think it's important that we keep, it's important that we Keep some of what this is at its core, you know, it's good stuff, it's nice. It's like, I know it's. Nobody wants vegetables, but it's kind of yummy.

Matthew McLean: 00:37:39

Vegetables, you know, vegetables for years.

Rachel Corbett: 00:37:44

That makes it sound so sad, but.

Matthew McLean: 00:37:46

I mean that in a positive way. Yeah, totally. How many podcasts are you running these days? All in?

Rachel Corbett: 00:37:54

Oh, gosh, we on the network, I mean we're making.

We've probably got about 10 live ones internally, but then we've got a whole network, like hundreds, you know, partner licensed across a full network. So a lot. Yeah, a lot of shows.

Matthew McLean: 00:38:14

When was the last time you started a completely new podcast?

Rachel Corbett: 00:38:18

Recently and interestingly. Actually it's interesting.

I think the first time I ever met Colin was at a conference years ago and I think he was doing a presentation on podcasting in Seasons at the time. And I'm currently in the middle of. So I started the podcast, it would have been maybe six months ago now.

It's about the fact that I, I began, decided to be a solo mum called Me and My Tiny Human. And I honestly, I've never. It's the show I've created. I've created.

I've never had the kind of response of any show like that so much as that show because I didn't actually realize how many women are out there doing it. I didn't know anybody else that had done it. I knew obviously it was a thing.

I didn't assume I was the first person to ever do it, but I didn't know anybody personally that had done it by themselves.

And just the number of people that reached out, but also the number of women that reached out that were really thinking about it but were like, oh, I didn't really think I could do it. And so having that kind of connection. So it's one of. It's truly such a meaningful show for me.

But just to go back to the seasons thing, it's like it's so hard doing a full time job looking after a two year old. I also have a podcast for my business which I keep alive and then trying to do another podcast on top of that that I've.

I've kind of gone to doing seasons and I'm in the middle of a gigantic break that was supposed to be one month and is now, I think two months that I'm just trying to dive back into. But yeah, so that was the last show that I created and. And I'm like per. The last personal show that I created. And it's one I'm very passionate about.

But it's like some days you just wish you had more hours in the.

Matthew McLean: 00:39:58

Day, you know, that's it. Yeah, I, Because I mean, are you like, in terms of when you record, you'll obviously be dictated by certain factors.

But I think for me there is a sweet spot at time of the day where I could record and not be tripping over my own tongue. And like if you're doing three or four different podcasts, it's like, well, which podcast? Because you can't do them all.

So that, you know, especially if you're, if you're literally doing one for your business there, you've got to kind of think about that too, don't you? So.

Rachel Corbett: 00:40:28

Oh, and also, I mean, just to not.

I mean, I know we've harped on enough about the video thing, but I'm laying out 20 different T shirts on my bed because I'm doing batch recording days. And so every record I've got to be in a different T shirt because I just can't, I can't have the same T shirt on for like 20.

Matthew McLean: 00:40:45

Weeks of video content.

Rachel Corbett: 00:40:49

So it's just like, you know, the punish of that. So. And when I'm trying to do more than one, yeah, it becomes really hard.

And at the moment it's like my hours are 5 to 7am before my kid wakes up up 7 till 10pm when my kid goes to bed. And then other than that I'm working a full time job. So you know, it's, it's trying to wedge those things in and it's in those times.

And maybe that's where some of my frustration comes from. But I'm like, mate, I used to just be able to whip out the old microphone and that was it.

Sometimes I'd shove my head in a few pillows just to kind of decrease the echo in the room. It didn't even matter what I looked like. Like I could get it smashed out really quickly, whereas now it takes me a lot more time.

Matthew McLean: 00:41:26

Them say you did like an experiment where you were like, you know, no video. What month are we in? No video. September. Like what, what do you think the worst thing that could happen there?

Like you could still post audiograms and stuff like that. But like just no video.

Rachel Corbett: 00:41:42

That's a solid idea. That is actually a really good idea to see with a base level of audience. Does it actually have any impact or do I still grow?

You know, and if you still grew, would you ever bother doing video again?

Matthew McLean: 00:42:01

Yeah, like if you, if you show and again, one month maybe isn't a long enough time, but, like, it would give you a sample size, at least some data.

Rachel Corbett: 00:42:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not a bad thing to do.

Yeah, it's interesting because I guess obviously one of the frustrating things about Seasons is, you know, you're not kicking off on day one with exactly the number of downloads that you had on the last day of your season previously. You kind of got to build up to it.

So it's like I'd almost want to be on for a bit, get back into the rhythm, hit like a base level of audience and then. And then trial it there. But that's, that's actually a solid experiment to run to see whether that would work because, yeah, you just.

I'm really looking for permission to not do it.

Matthew McLean: 00:42:46

Can't be a good case study for a. Permission to try something. We obviously talked, we touched a wee bit on AI and its uses.

Like, what are some other tools or things that are really working for you or getting you excited about in the medium at the moment, if any.

Rachel Corbett: 00:43:06

I'm really enjoying sort of playing around with. I think some of the audio stuff is really good, like Adobe enhancement. I want. I'm not a.

You know, I'm not always a fan of one click processing, but I'm really. I've struggled to hate it. It's like, cleaned up some. There was some unusable audio we had at work with an interview with someone that was.

I mean, they didn't even have headphones and it was like their computer mic and it sounded like they were four rooms away. And it was just. And then it. And I can't believe what it chucked out. Like, we were literally going to chuck the audio in the bin.

So that was pretty amazing. And now also because I'm sort of thinking about my background, I, you know, record in a space that I wouldn't necessarily record.

It's not the best space for audio, but that's really helped a bit. I'm enjoying kind of playing around with some of the kind of clipping tools. I don't think they're there yet from a video perspective.

You know, I'm like, I have great dreams about the day that I can chuck a video in and it can just like, like pop me out a whole bunch of video clips that I feel like I would have edited myself. But I. I still feel like that needs a total human touch.

You know, I just think that there's a skill to working out how to clip video in a way that feels like it just exists in that moment that doesn't feel like it was a section that's clipped out of something larger that actually is around beginning, middle, end. Thought that kind of works in that manner. So, yeah, I've been kind of playing around with that, which has been interesting. I'm still. Yeah.

The only thing that I use religiously that I do feel I get a lot of benefit out of is like ChatGPT in terms of just generating and helping me come up with ideas and stuff for content. I find that's the most reliable.

But it did take me a long time to train it to get the output that I wanted because of, you know, off for the first little while, it kind of wasn't doing a great job of that. But yeah, I'm always kind of playing around with things and seeing what sort of works. What do you, what kind of. What tools do you like?

Matthew McLean: 00:45:25

I've got right back in old school, but Canva recently, like, I've been playing.

Rachel Corbett: 00:45:29

A lot of times. I mean, that is like the only design tool you ever need.

Matthew McLean: 00:45:35

Yeah. And like, it's so, it's so evolved from. Well, it still does everything it used to do, but it's so evolved now in there. Like, you know, creating.

No, we're laughing about it, but creating shorts and stuff like that. Like, it has these video creation tools and you know, you can. If you.

We've got the premium account through the company, you've got your brand colors in there and everything. So. I'm hopeless at design, but even I could knock some up that I'm like, you know, that doesn't look terrible.

Rachel Corbett: 00:46:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Canva is brilliant. Like, I, I don't know how you have a. Any.

You run any kind of content without a Canva account, you know, because if you're sharing on social media or even if you're making stuff for your website, doing stuff for your newsletters, like, it's, it's so invaluable, you know, because you can just make anything. And that's. It's really that you think it's expensive to hire designers to do stuff, you know, so to be able to.

And some stuff I will definitely hire designers for because I'm just like this. Actually, I ain't got the time nor the inclination to kind of make this look a certain way.

But if you're doing stuff day to day, it's just a brilliant tool to use.

Matthew McLean: 00:46:41

Definitely. What about, like, is your equipment or setup changed over the past few years or have you, have you stuck with gear for quite a long time.

Rachel Corbett: 00:46:51

You know I've been using the Same gear for 15 years same gear and I use some Shure PGA 58s. I use a Zoom H6 recorder and I like the sound of these mics.

I've tried other USB mics, other, you know, the other Shure mics and I don't know I just like the sound of this microphone and the Zoom. I love.

I used to go out and do an interview show years ago and so I, I would take that with me and I don't know if you like you know when we worked in, when you worked in radio you take this God awful giant thing called him rants around everywhere and I guess my.

You I just was just used to carrying a piece of hardware around so the idea of taking my computer to record something on my computer just never felt right. But I absolutely love it.

And then I just plug it into my computer to use it like as an audio interface if I need to record like this, this or and do anything into audio. But I've. This has been my kit forever and I have really never changed it except for like replacing the Zoom once because it broke.

But I think these are even the same. They might be even the same mics of using.

Matthew McLean: 00:48:07

Yeah.

Rachel Corbett: 00:48:09

You know but I like it. I like that gear. I don't. I'm not one of those people that's like I need to. I'll try all the stuff but I just have.

I've never really felt like anything matched it, you know.

Matthew McLean: 00:48:23

Yeah, yeah. I'm the same like I've had just the same gear for many years. My old Focusrite Scarlett 2i2i only recently had to get rid of that. It just broke.

Otherwise it kept it. I had that for 15 years. I've got an old Samsung Q2U so we do get sent a lot of stuff to review and I've got the opportunity to.

To use better gear and as technically better gear. But I'm like why? I just like. I like how this just forgives a suboptimal environment and I can kind of take it.

I think the only, the only setup of improved recently or changed is like I would. I would always take my H5 2XLR cables and like I think it was two SM58s on location to do recordings and Rode sent us the wireless micro.

The smart lav mic. It's like I can't believe when I listen back to the audio that that is smartphone audio.

It's like it's so good and it's just like carrying a pair of earbuds about.

So that has been a game changer for me, just not having to carry and like, you know, if you're on location and you're recording with somebody who isn't used to recording, I always thought they looked intimidated. When I started hauling Rose XLR cable out my bag and plugging in, you could almost see them stiffen up.

Whereas when I'm just saying to somebody here, just put that on your T shirt. There's no real. I don't see any alarm in their eyes. So I'm finding that kit really handy.

Rachel Corbett: 00:49:53

Yeah, that's good. And you don't feel like it doesn't, it doesn't feel like the audio is far away or you don't get any of that rub stuff or.

Matthew McLean: 00:50:02

Hi. The audio is just so good. And again, going back to what you were saying about the eye cleanup, like, I'm the same.

I've always just prided myself on doing all this manually. But, you know, I stick it through Alitude and obviously there's loads of other tools that do it as well.

And at the other end that you're like, I cannot believe how that. Just like you're saying it brings you on mic and everything.

Rachel Corbett: 00:50:23

Yeah.

Matthew McLean: 00:50:24

So I, like, I'm leaning into that more and more. And I'm also. I'm coming away from Adobe Edition more and more because I don't feel that Adobe are really supporting it very well or at all.

And I'm just getting. There's little issues.

Each one that pops up is just a little another repebble in the bucket where I'm like, I'm maybe just gonna have to at some stage get rid of it because I'm still paying like 20 quid a month for it. And it's. It's definitely not worth that now because they're not. They're not caring about it. So.

Rachel Corbett: 00:50:56

Yeah. Yeah, I've, I've used. Yeah. Audition for ages because you just get. You get used to the platform.

Matthew McLean: 00:51:01

Yeah.

Rachel Corbett: 00:51:01

The idea of using another. Yeah, another. Getting my head around something new. I'm like, oh, how do I do this? Like, so I'm so comfortable with that platform.

You know, that's how they get you, though. It's the subscriptions, you know, and then you're like, you're not gonna. You suck so much money and time into this.

You're not gonna cancel that subscription. It's like, yeah, you got me. It's true.

Matthew McLean: 00:51:25

So we've had a good old chat here, I guess, just to. To get wrapped up. Like, what. What's next for you? What's on the. What's on the agenda the next week or two?

Rachel Corbett: 00:51:33

Well, just more. I mean, I feel like my life is just boringly work all the time. And I mean, I'm one of those people that loves the work that I do.

So it's like, it's just the juggle of the. The work to the kids stuff. But I'm doing a lot of work on my online podcasting course, Pod School as well.

Just building a lot of stuff out in the back end, which I. I find, I. I find like it could be the most mundane task masks. But because it's your baby, it's like so exhilarating, you know, like setting up some zapier connection or.

Zapier connection, however you say it in the back end of something is just like. I mean, it could take me nine hours, but I'm like, this was nine hours well spent. So I'm doing a lot of that at the moment.

And I'm really working hard to try and get my. Me and my tiny human back.

You know, I'm trying to kind of chip away at some episode plans and then seeing if I can get my kid looked after for a day sometime soon to just smash out a whole bunch of records and change my outfit 19 times to record all the video. But I'm really desperate to get that back. I think, you know, like, that's the thing that podcasters love, right? That connection with community.

And I think because when you're tapping into something that's emotional for people, it's like, it's just a. A totally different level. And really. Yeah, I really want to get back to that.

I got a lot out of that podcast, making it personally, so I really want to get some time to. To get that up and happening. So just chipping away at all the things, you know, and then also just trying to make sure that my child is happy.

Because that's just what we're all trying to do, right, as parents. Just make sure that they. We don't stuff them up, even though we will, but just the minimal amount possible.

Matthew McLean: 00:53:23

And then the irony that your washing pile is actually bigger than hers as well. It's usually the other way around. Like, if you're changing your T shirt nine times, you need an AI tool for that AI T shirt changer.

Rachel Corbett: 00:53:34

Truly, I didn't. One of the things I did not anticipate as a parent was that my washing machine would be on 24 hours a day. Like, I feel like I'm a laundromat.

It's like I've never used. And I remember the days I have an empty washing basket in my bedroom because I remember that.

I remember the days when I used to throw a whole bunch of clothes in and then when the washing basket was full, in a week or two weeks or however long it took you, you'd go and you'd do all that washing. I don't even bother with the washing basket now.

It just goes straight in the washing machine because in 15 minutes I'll have that thing on and like I'm just, I'm going to have to just chuck the washing basket out because it's a waste of time. It's a total waste of space in my bedroom.

Matthew McLean: 00:54:15

Just an empty basket.

Rachel Corbett: 00:54:16

That's it exactly. Taking up space. So there you have it. Matthew and I just chatting about podcasting. I hope you enjoyed that conversation.

Matthew forgot to press press the record button on the video. How ironic. It's like I can't believe I put BB cream on for that. Matthew, what a waste of time.

I had managed to just buy a hair's breath, make it to that recording session because my kid is in full blown nighttime bedtime routine stalling mode at the moment. And so when I thought 8pm was a fine time to book a call, she had other plans. Anyway, we did it. It was lovely.

As I mentioned, the link is there if you want complete that survey. It'll be great to get your input and your thoughts and I'll see you on the next episode.

Voice Over: 00:55:03

That's all for today.